AMIR INTERROGATION TAPE UNCOVERED
by Barry Chamish
Three evenings ago, I gave a lecture on the Rabin assassination in Netanya. Once the presentation was completed, a handsome woman named Rachel Friedman approached me. "My sister, brother-in-law and their three children were murdered in the pizzeria explosion in Jerusalem," she said. "The very last thing I said to my brother-in-law was that I'm coming tonight to hear you. And the last thing he told me was, 'The violence against us is being run by the same people who started the Holocaust. Maybe Rabin's murder will lead us to them.' He was from Holland and knew things Israelis don't. He was blown up a few moments later.
"I told Israeli tv news what he said and it was censored. The big story the next day was about an Arab killed in a retaliatory action. My family was almost wiped out and Sharon knocked down a few buildings in their memory. And the media thought an Arab killed in one of the buildings was more important than my brother-in-law's last thoughts."
Yesterday, five more Israelis were murdered. A husband and wife were slain before their infant children on the Modiin-Jerusalem road, a mile from my home. And Sharon knocked down some buildings to commemorate the slayings. Meanwhile, he is sending Peres to Germany to arrange the continuation of the slaughter until the NATO troops take over the region.
If you want to know what Israel is in for tomorrow, watch Macedonia today. It's the same plan. The New World Order leaders arm a gang of Moslem dissidents and they murder and maim and massacre until the world army comes in to douse the flames its commanders lit in the first place. Arafat is just doing what he's told, like any good dissident Moslem leader.
I told Rachel that her brother-in-law's last words were pure truth from G-d's heart to his mouth. I added that for years I've been saying the only way to save our people is by exposing the Rabin assassination. The truth will lead from Gillon to Peres to those Europeans enflaming our region. Of all the innumerable crimes against the Jews since the Oslo Accord, the only one Israelis will never forget is Rabin's murder. It is the key to our salvation.
Two days later I received the most dramatic piece of evidence seen in years. A dogged writer, well known and oft-seen on Israeli television, phoned me and insisted we meet. He drove to my home with his wife. He brought a tape with him as well as vital information we had both been seeking for years.
For those who follow my writing, recall the article They're Talking, in which two Shabak agents informed me of some of their service branch's most hidden secrets. I was informed that one of Rabin's bodyguards, named Tzvi, was murdered on the assassination night and buried quickly in Jerusalem. Until then I knew the name of another Shabak officer murdered in the aftermath of the Rabin assassination. It was Yoav Kuriel and he was buried in a closed ceremony ten days later. I asked the informers to give Tzvi's last name but they couldn't or wouldn't recall it.
My guest helped me out: "The bodyguard's name was Tzvi Forster. He was buried by an undertaker named Friedman in Givat Shaul Cemetary in Jerusalem."
Then he offered to show me three films he had acquired. They were the police interrogations of Amir.
"And not the phoney-baloney staged interrogation they showed on Channel Two last year; The real ones."
I will transcribe all three interrogations in time, but let us begin with the interrogation of Yigal Amir on Dec. 3/95. Earlier that day Amir had a hearing, covered by the media. He entered the courtroom and yelled to the cameras and over a million people watching, "Why aren't you investigating Rabin's murdered bodyguard? The people will forgive me when they know the background. After you understand why, you'll see the whole system is rotten. Everything you see is fabricated. I didn't think they'd start killing people."
Then at his hearing, he told Judge Dan Arbel, "They're killing people, it's all a lie?"
"What's a lie?" asked Arbel.
"That I killed Rabin," answered Amir. "I didn't even try to kill him. What you've seen up til now has been a facade. I request to be allowed to explain the background to my actions. They're killing people. If you listen to the truth, the whole country will be up in arms."
Needless to say, Judge Arbel did not give Amir a chance to explain himself and he was taken back to his lockup. The following interrogation took place later that nearly fateful day when Amir was about to tell the court the truth. The interrogators are two nervous, almost desperate policemen Yoav Gazit and Ofir Gamliel.
While reading the transcript, never forget that the Israeli media has spread a lie that Amir confessed to the murder to the police and that's all. This transcript proves that was not the case. Amir still wants to tell the truth but, clearly, he doesn't trust the intentions of the interrogators.
A decision was made to present the whole interrogation transcript. While that will slow and greatly lengthen the reading and often confuse the reader, the main consideration is authenticity, both of the atmosphere of the interrogation and the fact that I have acquired such damning evidence.
To reduce confusion, I will add commentary beginning and ending with three stars
447/95 Serious Crimes Division, Israel Police; Transcript of conversation
of 3/12/95 between the murder suspect of Prime Minister Rabin, Yigal Amir, and two investigators, Sergeant Ofir Gamliel and Inspector Yoav Gazit
Gazit: Let's finish the investigation. Let's clean up the whole story.
Amir: I gave you the phone so give it back.
Gazit: Here it is. This is the starting point. As soon as things are cleared up you can meet your parents. I want to start with a point you made and, look, I'm not writing anything down. You can talk freely. I want to nail down an issue you stated in Yoni's report...
Officer Yoni Hirshorn was Amir's first interrogator."
Gazit: Everyone heard what you said in the courtroom today. I want to know what you meant by it. I'm hearing bits and pieces in the media but don't have the true picture. I asked Yoni to write a summary of your claims. Tell me what you meant by them. Were they real or not?
Amir: Now I'll talk.
Gazit: You said that what we've seen so far has been a facade and you asked the court to let you explain the background to your actions. 'They're killing people, if you listen to the truth there will be a revolution in the country,' you said. Wasn't that a bit bombastic?
Amir: They didn't let me tell what I could have.
Gazit: So tell me, I won't write anything down, what did you mean? Is it a theory or not? I don't know.
Amir: They're killing people. I heard about the dead bodyguard from my lawyer and from my interrogators.
The Shabak agent, Yoav Kuriel was buried two weeks before and there were publicized suspicions of foul play. In the end. the police and media insisted that he committed suicide because he was depressed about the Rabin murder. Within a year, I spoke with one of Kuriel's burial team. He informed me that Kuriel had seven bullets in his chest. A persistent suicide it was. When Amir shouted to the cameras that the media was covering up the murder of a bodyguard, he reopened the wound and the police wanted to determine what he knows. Amir answers that his lawyer and other policemen told him about Kuriel. Gazit sees this line is going nowhere so far and switches topics.
Gazit: Tell me briefly what you know about Itamar Ben Gvir.
Amir: That's what I heard in the bus, that he was going to murder the prime minister.
Gazit: Did you meet him personally?
Gazit: Itamar was the one who put the sticker on the prime minister's car. He's an extremist. Did you ever meet him?
Amir: No, I just saw him.
Itamar Ben Gvir is a highly publicized member of Kach. There are widespread suspicions that he is a Shabak agent. What fueled said suspicions amongst many people was an incident a few years back when he threatened to murder Sinead O'Connor and her band if they showed up for their scheduled Jerusalem performance. The show was cancelled, leading to great resentment among the country's Left and youth towards right wing settlers like Ben Gvir. And what was Ben Gvir's punishment for his death threats? Nothing. He wasn't even questioned by the police. A month before Rabin's murder, Ben Gvir put a sticker on his car reading, 'We got to Rabin's car, next we'll get to him." Amir is claiming he heard a rumor on a bus that Ben Gvir was planning to murder Rabin that night. The plot thickens.
Gazit: Ben Gvir is in Kach. And the one who told you about him was a Likud Youth member from Raanana.
Amir: I don't want to say.
Gazit: You already said it. What you mean is you don't want to say who he was. You gave him a first name and I don't even remember it. Fine, you heard a theory and your lawyer told you a bodyguard was dead too. So what's your take on all this? Briefly, what do you make of it all? If you don't feel like answering, that's fine with me too.
Amir: Do you swear?
Gazit: Enough already.
Gazit: I just want to clear up what you said, what is true and what isn't.
Gazit: Nu, tell me already, briefly.
Amir: I'll tell.
Gazit: What did you mean when you were so bombastic in court.
Amir: I had to be. They wouldn't let me talk.
Gazit: Who knows what they thought.
Amir: I don't care.
Gazit: I am speaking as your investigator and I don't understand my case. I have to follow up on things said in the media and the courtroom and I don't get it.
Amir: You're my investigator, not my father.
Gazit: That depends. I never said I was your father and you don't have to confide in me. I never asked for names of people.
Amir: You'll hear me in court
Gazit: I'll tell you, from what you said in court this morning I can surmise that you think one of the bodyguards died, true?
Gazit: You said an attorney told you? Who is he? What's his name?
Amir: The one who came to me.
Gazit: That's not enough and you know it. We're not children here. I want to know where you heard this theory. See, I'm not writing down a word.
Amir: It was nothing. I just threw out some theories.
Gazit: That's not what you said before.
Gazit: I spoke with your brother before you as you saw. I asked what you meant in court today.
Amir: You'll both know later in court.
Gazit: You said you were on a bus to the rally, right. There was a guy...
Amir: I won't give his name. He told me that Itamar Ben Gvir was going to murder Rabin.
Gazit. You said you were told Ben Gvir intended to murder Rabin?
Gazit: And you said you heard from people that Avishai Raviv was a Shabak agent. And that Avishai is friends with Itamar Ben Gvir, true? That's what you said and now you're being wishy-washy. Are you finished with your words?
Amir connects Avishai Raviv to the Rabin murder. He, correctly identifies him as a Shabak agent. He connects Ben Gvir to Raviv and implies that he was a Shabak agent as well. And he insists that word was out that Ben Gvir was out to murder Rabin that night. Far from confessing to Rabin's murder, Amir is trying to make sense of it. He has obviously drawn some strong conclusions from the knowledge he possesses. Now look at the implications of Amir's conclusions.
Gazit: I can see you're tired. Stretch out while I carry on. Now tell me, true or not, is this what you believe? The top ranks of government, specifically Rabin and Peres, planned a fake assassination by a right winger after the rally and that Ben Gvir was supposed to be the shooter? Yes or no.
Amir: Yes, yes.
How do like them apples? Amir sorted out the plot, at least the fake assassination part and the blame shifted to a right wing religious shooter. Note that he includes Peres in the plan, a fact that also has turned out to be proven. No, Amir is not confessing to murder, he's caught on to what happened. Still, it must be noted, there has been no subsequent proof of his charges against Ben Gvir.
Gazit: I need us to clear all this up. Other than that, I don't need anything.
Amir: Then I didn't mean it.
Gazit: Then what did you mean?
Amir: I said this, I said that, I wasn't thinking straight.
Gazit: You said that Itamar Ben Gvir was supposed to arrive, um, with a gun full of blank bullets that Avishai Raviv gave him. True? That's what you said.
Amir told Hirshorn, his previous interrogator that Avishai Raviv supplied Ben Gvir with a gun loaded with blanks. But, the truth is that Raviv must have handed Amir that gun. We know this because we have a picture of Raviv holding a Baretta. The serial number, blown up, was the same as that of the gun Amir allegedly used to shoot Rabin dead. We know it because, a minute after Rabin's shooting, forty minutes before anyone ever heard of Amir, Raviv told reporter Amir Gilat and numerous members of his phoney radical group Eyal, that Amir did the shooting. He knew before anyone else because he supplied the gun to him. So why is Amir claiming Raviv also supplied a gun with blanks to Ben Gvir. Was he also set up to be a patsy, or a backup to Amir? Or perhaps Amir is making the story up to get the police to look into Raviv. Whatever his motive, Amir has realized that he shot blanks at Rabin.
Amir: It was just a story. I threw it out as a possibility. Maybe Avishai isn't what I thought in the courtroom.
Gazit: No. You said what you said, also about the Kahalani brothers, that they switched bullets or rigged their weapons. Where did you get that idea?
Amir is right again.Two months before Rabin's murder, Two brothers Eitan and Yehodidya Kahalani were arrested by the Shabak and charged with planning to massacre Arabs. The Shabak claimed they had tampered with the two M-16s, making them inoperable. In October 1999, I addressed 400 political bigwigs including four Knesset members at a forum in a Herzlia hotel. I told the gathered that I had the reports from the police ballistics lab. The two M-16s were in the lab the night before they were planted, not in the Kahalanis' car but in a car borrowed from a Shabak snitch named Yves Tibi. Two months later, the Kahalani brothers were quietly released from prison. And no one thanked me. Amir is absolutely right about the frameup of the Kahalanis. How did he know? No one suspected the Shabak of such a thing until the tactics of the Rabin assassination and Raviv were exposed much later. Amir has more than a gut feeling about how he was set up. Now look at him describe the plot perfectly.
Gazit: No! You said it. You said they rigged their rifles.
Amir: I tell the police one thing because they lead me in certain directions and it's not what I intend to tell the court.
Gazit: I'm asking if your version is just a theory. Your claim is that the top echelons of government staged a fake assassination to strengthen their hold on government by blaming a right wing shooter who really shot blank bullets. In the end, the intended shooter didn't shoot, but you did.
Gazit: And to further the plot, Rabin's bodyguards cleared a path for the shooter to Rabin?
Amir: That's why the bodyguards shouted that the bullets were blanks.
Bingo. Amir's got it. He worked out the plan and it seems that Gazit suspects he may be right. The problem is the addition of Ben Gvir. Why add him? Why doesn't Amir just say that Raviv gave him the gun with the blanks, since that is most probably the truth?
Gazit: So it was supposed to be Ben Gvir. No, let's not mention names. Wait, Ophir (Gamliel) is coming. (A second policeman enters the room). Ophir, he thinks I don't understand him, what he's getting to.
Amir: That's it.
Gazit: Talk to Ophir.
Gamliel: You spoke about a facade.
Gazit: Ophir wants to hear. That's why I brought him.
Like he wasn't watching the whole thing through a two way mirror.
Gamliel: You brought up other people.
Amir: I've said nothing. They didn't let me talk to the court or the reporters.
Gamliel: No, I meant here.
Amir: I asked you to let me talk.
Gamliel: Nu, talk!
Amir: You're not letting me.
Gamliel: Talk, let's hear.
Amir: It's too late.
Gazit: What's the story?
Amir: Wait until my trial.
Gamliel: The court will ask that the police testify to what you told us. You can't say we're not giving you every opportunity to explain yourself.
Amir: I don't want to say.
Gamliel: You don't want to say but we know what you want to say. We know your story.
Amir: It's not a story.
Gamliel is finally turning into the bad cop but the strategy fails. Amir will lose whatever slight trust he had established with Gazit as soon as Gamliel turns up the heat and the lies.
Gamliel: You said there was a Shabak conspiracy and you accidentally walked into the middle of it. You said the bodyguards shouted, ' They're blanks.' Do you know which ones?
Amir: I told you why they shouted, 'Blanks.'
Gamliel: And what do you base this theory on?
Amir: Nothing. It was just a theory. Take it or leave it.
Gamliel: So what's the theory. I don't understand it.
Amir: One of the bodyguards is dead.
Gamliel: Who told you such a thing?
Amir: Just people.
Gamliel: No one is dead. Now let's listen to your theory.
Gazit: Your theory is based on a dead bodyguard, murdered to keep silent.
Amir: He asked what I thought.
Gamliel: If I tell you there is no dead bodyguard, then your whole theory collapses.
Gamliel: That's what I'm telling you.
And is Gamliel ever wrong. Yoav Kuriel was buried on the 15th of November in HaYarkon Cemetary: His plot can be visited at bloc 13, region 5, row 57, number 20. Amir is right, but underestimated the situation. Another bodyguard named Tzvi Forster was murdered and buried ten days before Kuriel. Gamliel's game is to lie to Amir and force him to abandon his line of defense.
Gamliel: Your line is that the Shabak murdered him to shut him up. That's what you meant to say.
Gamliel: Did you say that here?
Amir: That's what I said.
Gamliel: Who is Benny Birtz?
Amir: Just someone.
Gazit: He told me the one who stuck the sticker on Rabin's car was there. He saw him on television.
Gamliel: Wait a second, you told me it's all connected and the shouts of, 'Blanks,' connects everything together.
Gazit: Suddenly he's very mysterious.
Gamliel: You don't want to talk to us.
Amir: Okay, I'll talk.
Gamliel: Then talk already.
(Amir's response missing from film).
Gazit: So nothing is true. It's all based on a story someone told you about a dead bodyguard.
Amir: As well.
Gazit: And you mixed the Kahalani story into your salad so everything would fit together. So, say something.
Amir: There's no need. This isn't a detective novel.
Gamliel: If the bodyguards were involved, tell me how and I'll investigate.
Amir: Does it seem right to you that...
Gamliel: So you're not so sure what's right, are you?
Amir: You said you'd investigate. If you're so sure then you won't, will you?
Gamliel: There's nothing to investigate. No one is dead. Everyone is alive.
Amir: Fine, if everyone's alive...And your story is truthful.
Gamliel: Now listen. You've just been guessing all along, haven't you? If not, tell us something you know for sure. Up til now you've been very frank with us. There's no reason to hide anything more.
Gazit: I don't understand your problem. We'll investigate whatever needs to be investigated. You explain yourself well. Say what it is you want to say.
Amir received information about Kuriel's murder from a trusted source, one of his lawyers. His attorneys were in a position to know and, from first hand experience I know, they were privy to profoundly disturbing information. Amir will not name which lawyer (at the time he had two lawyers and their partners working on his defense) and the two interrogators are becoming increasingly frustrated. They want to know who knows about Kuriel and Amir isn't budging. Their tactic is to investigate nothing for him until he spills the beans on his informants. In time, they will try to track down the Likud youth who informed him about Ben Gvir. But Amir will prove to be as suspicious of their true motives and as stubborn not to turn into a stool-pigeon.
Gamliel: It is the truth.
Gazit: I'm telling you, no one was killed.
Amir: So what, we'll see.
Gazit: So where did you get the story from? From who exactly? You can't really say you're basing your suspicions on hard facts.
Amir: Not this question.
Gamliel: So why is it one day you say at full volume that you did it, that you were alone and now you're inventing a conspiracy?
Amir: That's the situation. It's all been a facade.
Gazit: A facade by whom? Who wore the mask?
Amir: I can't say anything.
Gamliel: You can't or won't say? Because you weave conspiracies.
Gamliel: Not okay. I want to hear your theories.
Amir: I won't give you what you're after. You don't care.
Gamliel: We care. Our problem is most of what you've said until now checked out. We've been very impressed with your honesty. You're not a simpleton and what you've said so far, you believed. Now we want to check out your new points.
Amir: I just can't.
Gamliel: You mean you don't want to because you don't know anything. Why can't you tell? Is it because you know things that can't be revealed or you're guessing based on logic, like the bodyguards shouting, 'They're blanks.' You think that doesn't bother us, too? It does, no doubt about it. I can imagine how much it disturbs you. The question is if there is something behind it. So far, you've been very open with us, now we need hard facts from you.
Amir: I can't relate to that.
Amir: I can't relate to it.
Gamliel: You can't relate?
Amir: Can't relate.
Gamliel: Because you're just theorizing.
Amir: Enough, enough.
Gamliel (laughing): No, it's not enough.
Gazit: You really do want to relate your theory to us.
Gamliel: It would be interesting to hear what you think.
Gazit: Suddenly, he's so mysterious.
The cops are running out of rehearsed script and are repeating themselves. Amir has so far correctly told about the dead bodyguard, the frameup of the Kahalani brothers, the reason the bodyguards shouted, 'Blanks,' the fact that Raviv supplied the gun with the blanks, that the bodyguards cleared a path for the fake killer and that the orders came from Peres. That is an awful lot to know a month after the murder when it took the rest of us a good year or two or more before all of Amir's claims were proven true. If nothing else, we must ask how Amir knew so much, so soon.
Amir: All I can tell you is I don't say things for nothing. Don't worry about that.
Gamliel: You're trying to get other people involved. Until now this wasn't your line. So what changed your mind? What else is behind this conspiracy of bodyguards and whoever else was in it? We'll all leave here with a cleaner conscience if you can prove a conspiracy, or you think there was one because of this or that. Can you with a clean conscience attest to a conspiracy? Don't hesitate if you can give me evidence I don't have. Today they shut you up in court but you'll be home free at your trial to say what you want. Now what do you want to say?
Amir: I can't say.
Gazit: What do you mean you can't say?
Amir: I can't tell you.
Gamliel: You're just using logic, like in the Kahalani brothers story. What you say makes some sense but they're a different case. We're not going to investigate it for you. If you have evidence related to your case, we will. So talk already.
Amir: Everything that you wrote down about Itamar Ben Gvir is nonsense.
Gamliel: That was your theory.
Amir: It was nonsense.
Out of the blue, Amir retracts his story about Ben Gvir. The retraction is too sudden for the interrogators not to suspect the motive of this change of heart and they pursue it. In a flash, Amir has decided that he has said too much already for his own good.
Gamliel: You just don't understand the legal process. If you make a statement to the police and retract it, the court won't take you at your word. You have to be consistent. It's for your own good.
Amir: I didn't say it for my own good.
Gamliel: You're hurting your own cause.
Amir: I never said anything, nothing. Are you telling me that no bodyguard is dead?
Gamliel: So go on as if there was no dead bodyguard.
Gazit: One of your investigators told you that?
Gamliel: Ask your lawyer. He's objective. If he tells me a bodyguard is dead, I'll investigate.
Amir: So why are they saying so?
Gamliel: We just told you, there is definitely no dead bodyguard. Does it matter to you that much?
Gazit: That you're told there's no dead bodyguard.
But there was a dead Shabak agent, Yoav Kuriel, and Gamliel and Gazit, as investigators responsible for the most important crime in Israel's history, must have known it. Are they splitting hairs?: Kuriel wasn't a Shabak bodyguard but a Shabak agent. Or are they just lying to Amir? They may have suspected that Kuriel's death was unrelated to Rabin's murder but it is not their right to inform Amir that there was no dead bodyguard when they knew there was. The motives of Gazit and Gamliel must be considered suspect or why are they using unscrupulous strategy to get Amir to name the sources of his information.
Gamliel: Yigal, it's your right to think but there's no motive for your thoughts.
Amir: I never said anything, not a thing.
Gamliel: Then I can construe that your thinking is based on theory not facts.
Amir: What was said here, wasn't.
Gazit: Itamar, the bodyguards, the high-level plot, nothing?
Amir: I explained there, oh, alright.
Gazit: Have we stopped then?
Amir: He asked what could have been and I answered.
Gazit: So you meant none of it. They were just crumbs of ideas.
Gazit: This is hard to say, but we are at your service.
Gazit: What you said in the courtroom is unconnected to what you said here?
Amir: I can say more here.
Earlier in the day Amir told the judge and reporters that he never intended to kill Rabin. He is not prepared to tell Gazit or Gamliel anything nearly as important and they are beginning to see that their cause was hopeless. With them, Amir never retracts his claim that he didn't even try to kill Rabin. This obstacle was overcome when Amir was later instructed to explain he never intended to kill Rabin, just cripple him. Meanwhile, whatever Amir was prepared to tell Judge Arbel, he is not going to tell the police.
Gazit: Look how mysterious he's become so suddenly. I don't even know you anymore. This morning I spoke with Ofri. He said he was representing you. Do you even know who is your lawyer, the one who changed your whole perspective? There's no connection between these things at all.
Amir: Now I know what the connection is.
Gazit: I've sat with you before several times. You weren't like this. I want to know why you're so different now. Why you've suddenly become so mysterious. Is it just something that came over you?
Gazit: I'm not asking these questions for nothing. I consider you reliable, now I can't understand you. I had no problem with your story as long as you said you did it.
Gazit: Now you're throwing out new things and we're obliged to follow them up.
Amir: Even without me you should be doing it.
Amir: Your conclusions are unconnected to it all.
Gazit. No. You're saying these things in court and we have to find out why. You throw out these things in court and I have to find out from the media what you're claiming. You tell me that one day you'll tell everything. I have to find out what you mean by that. I don't even know what you mean by a facade. Tell me simply.
Gazit: Are you tired?
Gazit: We can talk to you tomorrow if you want, but it would be better to do some explaining now. You think you're the only one without explanations? We can find explanations for everything you think. If you've been just saying these things for nothing, then tell us.
Gamliel: I have one question.
Amir: What time is it now?
Gamliel: Five thirty. When you want to eat, join us. Now you told a story about a bus ride from your house to the rally on the night of the murder where you met an acquaintance who told you about Ben Gvir.
Amir: Truth and nothing but the truth.
Gamliel: Truth and nothing but the truth. That means you confirm the story on the bus.
Gamliel: Did you see him accidentally or do you always travel together? That would mean he lives in Herzlia.
Amir: I didn't say anything.
Gazit: He already told me.
Gamliel: What did he say?
Gazit: It was a guy from Likud Youth In Raanana. He gave me his name. What was it?
Amir: I don't want to give the name.
Gazit: You already told me.
Amir: Only the first name. I think it was Gilad, I'm not sure.
Gamliel: He must have known you or he wouldn't have brought up the subject.
Gazit: He was a young boy.
Gamliel: Someone who knew you.
Gazit: You said Margalit knew him as well.
Amir has already incriminated Margalit Har Shefi, as we shall soon see. The police are building their own right wing conspiracy and want as many people within it as possible. If this Likud youth didn't report Ben Gvir's intentions to the police, then he was as guilty as Har Shefi was of not preventing the murder of Rabin. But unlike Har Shefi, Amir told Officer Hirshorn that the youth did report Ben Gvir's plans to the police. The policemen are most likely not trying to help Amir's case but the government's for a right wing, religious conspiracy. And Amir has caught on.
Amir: Maybe I did. Listen, I don't want...
Gamliel: What don't you want?
Gamliel: But you're saying this is the truth. This is what happened on the bus.
Gazit: That means you happened to meet him and he just happened to tell you this story.
Gamliel: If you won't give his name, at least tell exactly what he said.
Amir: He heard that Itamar Ben Gvir wanted to kill Rabin at the rally.
Gamliel: So what did you tell him?
Amir: Can't you find the bus driver who might have seen us together?
Gamliel: Who was this youth?
Gazit: Don't play games. We're trying to find people and you're groaning.
Gamliel: Were you known to anyone else on the bus?
Gazit: I understood from you that you didn't see him again, that you avoided him.
Gamliel: Now explain logically why he told you the story and no one else we can find.
Amir: I'm not saying anything to incriminate someone else.
Gamliel: What could you incriminate him on?
Amir: It doesn't matter.
Gamliel: Not true.
Amir: I've already turned the state upside down.
Gamliel: Not true. You haven't turned anything upside down.
Amir uses the word "hafakhti" and I translated it turned upside down. It also means to cause a revolution. Now does Amir mean he turned the state upside down because he murdered Rabin, or because he was blamed for the murder? Look at his next line of thinking.
Amir: They've investigated every rabbi in the country.
Gamliel: Don't exaggerate.
Amir: No exaggeration.
Gamliel: All in all we spoke to a very few rabbis, not what you think.
Amir: The reign of terror against them has started. (Amir used Arabic word "alayhom" to describe terror).
Gamliel - Alayhom?
Amir has caught on to the whole plan; set up a religious patsy for Rabin's murder and start a reign of repression against the religious community and their rabbis. He knows that is what the policemen are aiming for and he's testing them. They do not fail him."
Gazit: Hagai told me specifically that you went to a certain rabbi to get his blessings.
Amir: Not true.
Gazit: Ask Hagai if he said it.
Amir: What does Hagai know about this?
Gazit: You tell me.
Amir: No, I know the rabbis permitted it. I hear it on the radio, read it in the papers. But I never went to a rabbi to ask.
Gamliel: They said in their classes?
Amir: No. There was no need. The persecutor judgement was known.
Gamliel: You wanted verification.
Amir: Didn't need it. Rabin fell in the category.
Gamliel: And I understand you checked that out first.
Gamliel: Yes, you.
Amir: And that's how I arrived at my conclusion...
Gamliel: You arrived at your own conclusion. The question is if you had help.
Amir riled Gamliel and got his answer. He is out to prove that the religious community and their rabbis murdered Rabin. His only purpose in interrogating Amir was to get him to change his testimony about a government conspiracy or to disprove it. Amir was right from the beginning: all the interrogators were interested in was wrapping up the government's version of events. Amir plays along with his inquisitors as he was always supposed to. He reverts to form and victimizes Har Shefi. It isn't easy to understand Amir's sudden reversal of form, but all talk of a government/Shabak conspiracy disappears and the rabbis are now to blame. This is what he was supposed to say all along and we can surmise that he knew these cops weren't there to help him. He gave up telling the truth.
Amir: No help but I was influenced.
Gazit: Not enough, be more specific. We understand from Hagai that you went to a rabbi and you yourself said that Margalit went to her rabbi in Bet El.
Amir: She wanted to. She didn't trust my judgement and said she'd see her rabbi. I told her to ask him.
Gamliel: Did she get an answer?
Amir: She told me no.
Gamliel: What, no?
Amir: He put her off, didn't give a straight answer.
Gamliel: So you felt vindicated.
Amir: I told her to ask and she'd find out it wasn't forbidden. She wanted to prove the opposite and I told her that he'd say it was allowed.
Gamliel: But you got a less certain answer in the end.
Amir: Another rabbi would have said it's a blessing. I didn't need to find one to know it.
And now the Shabak agent Amir returns to form. That Amir was, at least, a Shabak asset, has been testified to by thousands of people who saw him at work with Avishai Raviv from the autumn of 1992 on. Their job was to criminalize the religious community and the Jews of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The government had promised the PLO their homes and in order to assure that there would be no sympathy for their forced removal from them, the Shabak's Jewish Department, initially headed by Carmi Gillon, organized a campaign of sting operations against them, culminating in the Rabin assassination. Amir's duty was to smear the rabbis. Checking the timing carefully, not one rabbi ever brought up the concepts of persecutor, or a death judgement for tyrants until Amir arrived at their yeshivas and raised the issues. Amir knows precisely what the plan is and is now feeding the cops what they want to hear. They think they've finally broken him.
For the final five minutes of the interrogation, the interrogators once again try to get Amir to name names: which rabbi blessed his actions, who was the Likud Youth on the bus, who told him about the dead bodyguard, until Amir shouts,"Stop harassing me. This is like a Shabak interrogation."
Now how would he know that? Amir's crime was a police matter, and though the Shabak oversaw the interrogations, supposedly he was not questioned by the Shabak. Apparently he was.
That morning, Amir made a break for freedom. He told the media and the judge at his hearing that he didn't kill Rabin, in fact he never even tried to. When the judge refused to hear him out, his fate was sealed. He tried to tell the truth to the police and realized they had closed the book on him. His best hope lay in cooperating with the Shabak.
This taped interrogation proves that Amir, up until Dec. 3/95, did not confess to murdering Rabin and did try to expose the conspiracy. It is a very different tape than the ones shown Israeli television of Amir confessing and showing no regret.
So it has been hidden from the public. But I'll show it and two other tapes of Amir's police interrogations to any group which invites me. The issue isn't justice for Rabin; it's saving our nation from those still in power who murdered him. They are murdering all of us now and must be stopped. They only way to do so is through Rabin.
If anyone can help organize, finance or wishes to participate in a rally opposite the office of Elyakim Rubinstein, the state attorney-general, on November 4th to demand the reopening of the Rabin murder investigation, please contact me.
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